UPDATE:
"Craig said...
Susanna,
...my proficiency with Greek is mediocre at best, really. My vocabulary is poor....a few very handy tools—one in particular that parses all the words and has a great search function. If I had to take any first level test without my tools, I’d likely flunk or barely pass."
aha. therefore don't talk to me about grammatical ambiguity. From the foundation of the world has to refer
to The Lamb's death, not the book. you can argue whatever is dependent on the Lamb's death is from the
foundation also with the Lamb's death, but it is the Lamb's death referred to since all depends on it.
When there is real or apparent ambiguity, check rest of Scripture on the subject. the Acts cite I gave says
the same, that the Crucifixion is from the pre determination of God. https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?postID=2905384041416305199&blogID=11772087&isPopup=false&page=2
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
since Craig of https://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/ has engaged in slippery and twisting
behavior in arguing with me, and the likely covert witch mole who hates the
denunciation of manipulating chakras as dangerous because real instead of chakras
being nonexistent fawns on him and posted here, for the benefit of my readers in
case he realizes his mistake (unlikely considering how self satisfied he is), and deletes
his posts, I have our conversation copied here goes through three or four threads on
Constance's blog comments section.
I notice on his blog he does some similar twisting of the Bible and prefers the
sloppier Alexandrian text (which he either idiotically or dishonestly on purpose
calls a separate issue from translation, when text drives translation, duh!) here
is what I read so far. I am sure that his denunciations of the errors of some others
is correct enough though may contain subtle errors in them even as started this
argument with me.
For instance, he considers that Malina and Rohrbach have "some relevant insights
into Jesus' final act" which include something outrageous.
"After thus ratifying that his purpose has been fully accomplished, Jesus hands over his spirit to those around the cross—the community of those who believe in him their leader, the beloved disciple and the witnessing women."
No, He gave up his spirit to God The Father "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost." Luke 23:46."
Even without this you can take it for granted that He wasn't now simply infiltrating and haunting
His followers and living in their community! I wonder if ther is some heretical agenda
in these people's writings.
Craig said...
paul,
Yes; while Dahlheimer’s “God” has to clean up a mess made by a lesser G/god who emanated from him, the Christian God, the One True God, had a plan from the very beginning. Revelation 13:8 states:
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world.
The grammar here is a little ambiguous, so it may instead be:
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was slain.
Thus, it’s either that the Lamb (Jesus) was slain from the very beginning, or that the book of life belonging to the Lamb was there from the very beginning, this book of life requiring the Life-Giver, Christ. Either way amounts to the same thing. No back-up plan; it was there from the beginning. There’s no “Ooops!” like Dahlheimer’s “God”.
-----------------
Blogger Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said..."slain from the foundation of the world" not grammar ambiguity, but that the atoning death of the Lamb
was decided on before creation began, THAT was the backup plan if sin occurred, so the Crucifixion was
settled on before creation, which made it as good as having happened.
-------------------------
Anonymous Craig said...
Christine, the indisputable queen of syntax and grammar (at least on this blog) wrote, in response to my post @ 8:26 AM above:
"slain from the foundation of the world" not grammar ambiguity, but that the atoning death of the Lamb was decided on before creation began, THAT was the backup plan if sin occurred, so the crucifixion was settled on before creation, which made it as good as having happened.
The verse is grammatically ambiguous, such that it is grammatically permissible to translate it in one of two ways, as I had in my earlier comment. Just consult a good technical commentary. Since exegesis begins with correct translation, and interpretation hinges on translation, it is prudent to point these sorts of things out. Given the syntactical ambiguity, one could accept the second of the two translations above and interpret the passage as espousing predestination. But, then, one should back that up with other passages.
Your statement above is an interpretation, your interpretation presupposing what the verse should say (eisegesis). I don’t necessarily disagree with your “the atoning death of the Lamb was decided on before creation began”, as that’s what I tried to convey in my closing paragraph (to have a Book of Life, it would appear to require the Life Giver). However, your claim that this was a “backup plan if sin occurred” is concerning. Did God think He might have to sacrifice the Lamb just in case sin would occur? Is God not omniscient? Are you an open theist?
Putting that aside, here’s food for thought, not requiring a response (please): From a philosophical perspective, what is the relationship between the temporal realm and eternal? Should we construe eternity as consisting of events occurring in a linear fashion?
----------------------------
Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...
...
Craig, re syntax ambiguity Revelation was questioned because of poor writing style, but
this supports its legitimacy, a semi literate fisherman would have scribes help him phrase
the Gospel, but was on his own on Patmos.
"the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world" the
second phrase clarifies the first, and focusses on the Lamb so is about the Lamb not the
book. supports Mosaic sacrifices looking forward to Jesus Christ, can also mean slain to
found the new creation to come.
"...your claim that this was a “backup plan if sin occurred” is concerning..... Is God not
omniscient? Are you an open theist?" no, God would know it would be needed, and they
all agreed on this solution to the inevitable problem before creating anything. plan A was
the sinless perfect creation until sin happened then plan B would kick in. There is no "oops"
when you anticipate something.
--------------------------
Craig said...
Christine, our resident know-it-all, wrote:
Craig, re syntax ambiguity Revelation was questioned because of poor writing style, but this supports its legitimacy, a semi literate fisherman would have scribes help him phrase the Gospel, but was on his own on Patmos.
"the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world" the second phrase clarifies the first, and focusses on the Lamb so is about the Lamb not the book. supports Mosaic sacrifices looking forward to Jesus Christ, can also mean slain to found the new creation to come.
“Questioned because of poor writing style”? I think it was your poor comprehension, most likely due to reading too fast, coupled with your zeal to ‘correct’ everyone here. Why can’t you just admit that you initially missed my point?
I find it amazing that such a “semi literate” [sic] fisherman would be able to write such vivid imagery, replete with symbols galore (stars as angels, e.g.), in writing Revelation in its apocalyptic style, a genre so much different than the one employed in the Gospel of John, without the help of other scribes.
You also wrote, responding to me, confusing my quotations of you and your own quoting of my quotations of you, which I’ll fix for the sake of clarification:
"...your claim that this was a ‘backup plan if sin occurred’ is concerning..... Is God not
omniscient? Are you an open theist?" no, God would know it would be needed, and they
all agreed on this solution to the inevitable problem before creating anything. plan A was
the sinless perfect creation until sin happened then plan B would kick in. There is no "oops"
when you anticipate something.
So, you are implicitly admitting you were being sloppy in your initial response. At least that’s how I’m gonna take it.
---------------------------
Blogger Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...
Craig I got your point, and I answered it. I did not admit initial sloppiness, but had to
explain the obvious to you in more detail.
you base your interpretation on syntax ambiguity which I answered was a feature of Revelation
used against it by some who denied its authenticity so you can't rely on it for your purpose
I added that this ambuity was what you could expect if it was legitimate. Revelation was first accepted, then misused by Montanists so rejected and a coucil reinstated it. And since The
LAmb is mentioned second half of sentence but not the book of life, the seconed half is about the Lamb not the book.
Revelation was a bit rough for koine so a simple fisherman wrote it unaided. nothing amazing, he WROTE WHAT HE SAW AND HEARD. you, heretic, assume he wrote a genre. HE REPORTED WHAT HE SAW.
--------------------
Anonymous Craig said...
Oh Christine, au contraire.
First of all, syntax ambiguity is found in all of Scripture. It’s found in John’s Gospel. I’m currently finishing up a series (some is posted), and I point out how John 19:28 is syntactically ambiguous. A similar thing is found in 19:30.
And you are wrong regarding the placement of “Lamb” and “book” in Revelation 13:8—but don’t let facts stop you from pontificating. Both are found together in the latter half of the verse (and neither is repeated). Here’s how it reads in the Greek:
?? t? ß?ß??? t?? ???? t?? ?????? t?? ?sfa?µ???? ?p? ?ataß???? ??sµ??
in the Book of Life of the Lamb of the one slain from foundation of cosmos.
I’m the “heretic”, eh? John wrote what he saw, and the writing is in the apocalyptic genre. If you wish to believe that everything written should be understood literally, that’s your prerogative. Me, I don’t think that Jesus will strike down His enemies with a literal sharp sword that comes out of His mouth. I think this is more likely to be understood as in line with Hebrews 4:12.
------------------------------------------------------
"And you are wrong regarding...“Lamb” and “book” in Revelation 13:8...(and neither is repeated)."
Lamb is repeated in the translation you used.
" Here’s how it reads in the Greek:
....in the Book of Life of the Lamb of the one slain from foundation of cosmos."
Thank you for making my point for me, "the Book of life of the Lamb OF THE ONE
slain from the foundation of cosmos" of the one slain clearly refers to the Lamb.
"I’m the “heretic”, eh? John wrote what he saw, and the writing is in the apocalyptic genre."
you say its amazong John could do this by implication ascribing Revelation to John's ability as if he made it up of course its going to be apocalyptic because of content. you say its amazing he could do this. WHY? if he could read and write he could file a report. nothing amazing. STOP FOCUSING ON MAN AND FOCUS ON GOD. (same deal with your nonsense about health reason for food laws) If he saw Ozzie and Harriet discuss theology the report wouldn't be apocalyptic what he saw was apocalyptic so the report was apocalyptic.
literal vs. symbolic has to do with interpreting what was seen, NOT with reporting it. he REPORTED what he was shown, as he was told to do, he didn't have some reverie with strong fantasy and compose in the apocalyptic genre
------------------------------------
Anonymous Craig said...
Christine,
I don’t know why you have this penchant to try to ‘prove’ things about which you’ve no clue.
First, let’s not lose track of the argument. Most recently you claimed the following: And since The LAmb is mentioned second half of sentence but not the book of life, the seconed half is about the Lamb not the book. Yet rather than concede that your assertion is wrong in view of the evidence I provided, you go back to your original assertion that the syntax is not ambiguous and claim I'd made your point (I didn't). Rather than attempt to explain exactly how the syntax is ambiguous, I’ll point you to a number of English versions that illustrate it.
Should that not be convincing—and why would I think it would be for you—check out the parallel at 17:8, which is not syntactically ambiguous:
… whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world… (KJV)
--------------------------------------
Anonymous Craig said...
Christine wrote, quoting me first (bold), then responding: 'And you are wrong regarding..."Lamb" and "book" in Revelation 13:8...(and neither is repeated).'
Lamb is repeated in the translation you used.
BUT IT'S NOT IN THE GREEK FROM WHICH THE VERSE WAS TRANSLATED!!!
"Lamb" and "book of life", in Greek, are most certainly in the last half of that verse--and NEITHER is repeated. Just look at the Greek text in the hyperlink supplied at 6:40 PM above: t? ß?ß??? t?? ???? = "the book of life"; t?? ?????? = "the lamb". You are incorrect, and it's well-past time you admit this.
--------------------------------
Blogger Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhfJwAHhmrk Summer of Rage | Mass Riots in July?
paul, I apologize for putting the wrong name on.
re Jim Bakker, anyone who could tolerate him before the scandal and sees only the scandal is seriously fleshly and loving deception. the whole style was to put it mildly worldly and fleshly I doubt it has changed much. I couldn't stomach him for more than a few seconds, two minutes at the most. the scandal was predictable. and THEME PARK!? and his wife like an over made up whore? that people would send him money shows how screwed up many Christians are.
Craig "Yet rather than concede that your assertion is wrong in view of the evidence I provided,"
you gave no evidence
"you go back to your original assertion that the syntax is not ambiguous"
EXCUSE ME?! I NEVER SAID THE SYNTAX WAS NOT AMBIGUOUS. I said that the ambiguity was more typical of Revelation than the rest of the NT and some said therefore John didn't write it, but less educated and alone this could be expected. Scripture ambiguities - difficulty of finite expressing inifnite, also it is street Greek not Classical Greek, think ebonics vs. Ivy League English.
" and claim I'd made your point (I didn't)."
Yes you made my point, because when you quote Greek that says THE ONE in that sentence instead of repeating the word LAMB it is clearly speaking about THE LAMB because books don't get slain and if all in it die then no one meets Jesus at His Return and gets caught up as He is descending. the translator who put the repeat of "Lamb" in the sentence obviously saw "the one" as referring to The Lamb.
saying the LAMB was slain from the foundation of the cosmos is consistent with your true statement, that God "had a plan from the very beginning." The Lamb was as good as dead because His death (and REsurrection) was determined from before Creation to correct what
would inevitably happen.
I'm not going to argue with you anymore on this. you want to pursue your self righteousness
go ahead. meanwhile, paul, forget health reasons for food laws. there aren't any. it was about separation. That is explicitly clear.
"MCE is not interested in the truth, not interested in what is right." on the contrary, defending truth is why I argue and I am repeatedly apalled by what I see here. Like the people who insisted that the parable of the mustard tree was not about what Jesus said it was about, the growth of the Kingdom of Heaven, but about the abnormal growth of false churches.
------------------------------
Anonymous Craig said...
Christine, continuing to obfuscate:
Craig [wrote to Christine:] "Yet rather than concede that your assertion is wrong in view of the evidence I provided,"
[her response:] you gave no evidence
The evidence was in the Greek text I provided, which refutes your assertion that (1) it is not ambiguous; (2) that “the Lamb” is in the 2nd half of the verse rather than “book of life” which is in the first [since The LAmb is mentioned second half of sentence but not the book of life, the seconed half is about the Lamb not the book… (10:53PM – all time stamps from previous thread)]; and, (3) that “the Lamb” was not repeated in the verse. I’ll provide proof of your statements as I go.
[quoting me:] "you go back to your original assertion that the syntax is not ambiguous"
EXCUSE ME?! I NEVER SAID THE SYNTAX WAS NOT AMBIGUOUS. I said that the ambiguity was more typical of Revelation than the rest of the NT and some said therefore John didn't write it, but less educated and alone this could be expected. Scripture ambiguities - difficulty of finite expressing inifnite, also it is street Greek not Classical Greek, think ebonics vs. Ivy League English.
Addressing (1), your initial response (1:14AM) stated: not grammar ambiguity, but that the atoning death of the Lamb was decided on before creation… You partially backed down from this assertion [re syntax ambiguity Revelation was questioned because of poor writing style (1:18AM)], claiming that, comparatively, John’s Gospel is not ambiguous because John had help [a semi literate fisherman would have scribes help him phrase the Gospel, but was on his own on Patmos (1:18AM)]; however, the Scriptural evidence shows ambiguity throughout the NT, including John’s Gospel. In fact, the current series I’m writing points to this in John 19:28-30.
Cont:
7:50 AM
Anonymous Craig said...
Cont:
Yet, then again, your words below imply that it’s not really ambiguous (‘round and ‘round we go), because (2) and (3) above:
[quoting me:] "and claim I'd made your point (I didn't)."
Yes you made my point, because when you quote Greek that says THE ONE in that sentence instead of repeating the word LAMB it is clearly speaking about THE LAMB because books don't get slain… the translator who put the repeat of "Lamb" in the sentence obviously saw "the one" as referring to The Lamb.
So, after your initial claim (2), you respond to my preemptive response to you—“the Lamb” is not repeated (3)—by claiming that the Greek substantival [t?? ?sfa?µ????], which means “the one slain”, or “who was slain” (or, “the one who was slain”) is a repeating of “the Lamb”, though you neglect that even if one were to grant that (I wouldn’t), that it’s STILL IN THE LATTER PART OF THE VERSE ALONG WITH “BOOK OF LIFE” (2).
I’m only belaboring this because I’m tired of you running roughshod over folks here. My initial comment was in response to Dahlheimer, but you had to butt in with your ‘know-it-all’ attitude. You clearly DON’T know it all.
---------------------------
Anonymous Craig said...
Phooey. In my attempt to unravel Christine’s Gordian knot, I added an extra “not” in my point (3) above. That is, it should be: (3) that “the Lamb” was repeated in the verse. And since I’m providing a correction, I’ll add another preemptive statement. If I were to state, “Christine, the one who would argue with wallpaper”, the part after “Christine” is descriptive, NOT a repeating of “Christine”. Hence “the Lamb” is not repeated in the Greek text.
-----------------------------
Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...
Craig, I didn't back down AT ALL from ANYTHING. if you can't see that in English, I doubt
you can make any valid points in Greek so I doubt I will waste my time reading whatever
nonsense you put together in that article. This is the second time you ascribed to me
things I was not doing and didn't appear to be either, admitting you take things the way you
prefer so you are not after truth but subjective wishful thinking.
The original English translation said The Lamb twice, second time translating "the one"
so I'm not alone in figuring this meant the Lamb. meanwhile you are left in the position
of saying either
no one is left alive who were in the book of life, unlikely given harpazo statement and
Matthew 24 though not impossible given Luke 18:8,
the other an absurdity, that a book is killed,
third option a reference to God's preplanning which is to the glory of God. And you refuse
the latter. hah!
or the absurdity that only those who get killed are in the Lamb's book of life, that if you didn't
die a martyr violently, but died peacefully in your sleep, you are damned or at least real low
class barely tolerated on the perimeter of the Kingdom of HEaven when it is installed on earth.
--------------------------------------
Christine wrote: I didn't back down AT ALL from ANYTHING.
In a way, that’s not exactly untrue. What you DID do is initially claim “no grammar ambiguity” against my claim that there was grammatical ambiguity (there are two ways to interpret the Greek); however, your follow-up answer didn’t “back down”, rather it just said: re syntax ambiguity Revelation was questioned because of poor writing style. So, you didn’t EXPLICITLY “back down”, though it was implicit.
In any case, I’ve made my case just above, so I won’t rehash. Clearly, you’ve backtracked to where you’d done a 360, then continued your attempts at obfuscation. I’ll let the readers decide whose position is the accurate portrayal of events.
Now, with this new stuff you’ve brought up…are you serious?! Where did I intimate that the Greek translated “the one who was slain” refers to the book of life?! Your comprehension is seriously lacking, Christine. Go argue with your wallpaper. You’ll do much better, I promise you.
The problem is that you don’t understand the Greek, and, hence, you’ve no idea what you’re talking about. As I suggested in my last comment on the other thread, you don’t have to believe me, just check the variations in English translations illustrating the very point I made in my initial comment on Revelation 13:8. That is, the grammar is grammatically ambiguous such that there are two possible renderings.
But, haven’t you—again—violated your once per week limit on posting?
--------------------
Blogger Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...
Sunday May 28, AD 2017 will date future posts so no one wrongly thinks as two do now that I
posted twice in same week.
...
"... you didn’t EXPLICITLY “back down”, though it was implicit."
I see why you misunderstood me, to me syntax and grammar are all the same. I did not back
down. writing problems in NT are because it is NOT Classical Greek but koine http://www.theopedia.com/greek which is to Classical Greek as ebonics is to proper English.
Revelation has extra problems, used against it when arguing John the Apostle didn't write it (Irenaeus, student of John's student, said he did, so he did). https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/17428/who-wrote-the-book-of-revelation
confusing the issue is "a literal millennium" Revelation shows NO END to Christ's rule.
the first thousand years the devil is fully bound unable to tempt ANYONE not crippled like now,
then released briefly for one last test of mankind a revolt happens and it is put down then the
general resurrection, the judgement, new heavens and new earth and descent of the New
Jerusalem (which the CHurch is a foretaste of).
I have NOT violated the once a week limit. I post on Sundays and sometimes on a later day
that is still ONE DAY IN THAT WEEK. Lack of others posting looks like less time passed.
"Clearly, you’ve backtracked to where you’d done a 360," huh? you mean I reminded you
that you started this by denying The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world?
"then continued your attempts at obfuscation." I have not obfuscated but tried to explain in more detail but you seem more dishonest than confused. so you don't deceive others I try to correct your errors anyway.
"Where did I intimate that the Greek translated “the one who was slain” refers to the book of life?!"
BY DENYING THAT "THE ONE SLAIN" REFERS TO THE LAMB, which denial much earlier is why this discussion, YOU LEAVE NO OTHER OPTION but that the book of life was slain, and a couple of other absurdities.
----------------
Anonymous Craig said...
Christine,
Since you persist, let’s go back to the very first statement I made, which was addressed to paul and in reference to Dalheimer’s “god”. [This provides yet another opportunity for Dalheimer to try to defend his position/refute my assertions about his cosmology and theology.]
_________________________________
Yes; while Dahlheimer’s “God” has to clean up a mess made by a lesser G/god who emanated from him, the Christian God, the One True God, had a plan from the very beginning. Revelation 13:8 states:
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world.
The grammar here is a little ambiguous, so it may instead be:
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was slain.
Thus, it’s either that the Lamb (Jesus) was slain from the very beginning, or that the book of life belonging to the Lamb was there from the very beginning, this book of life requiring the Life-Giver, Christ. Either way amounts to the same thing. No back-up plan; it was there from the beginning. There’s no “Ooops!” like Dahlheimer’s “God”.
___________________________________
I’ve never stated nor intimated anything about the scroll being ‘slain’—that’s your own ridiculous misconstrual. In fact, above I implied otherwise with this @ 9:19 AM: If I were to state, “Christine, the one who would argue with wallpaper”, the part after “Christine” is descriptive, NOT a repeating of “Christine”. Hence [similarly] “the Lamb” is not repeated in the Greek text.
Yes, all the NT is written in Koine Greek. But, let’s not obfuscate [again], I didn’t confuse what you wrote. Sure, “syntax” and “grammar” can be synonymous; I’ve even used them that way. The issue here is your attempted rebuttal of my initial statement above, not Koine vs. Classical Greek. As I noted, syntactical ambiguity is found throughout the NT, including the Gospel of John. I stand by my comment above @ 7:50 / 7:52 AM, and the follow-up @ 9:19 AM, which point out your flip-flop on the issue of syntax/grammar: In reference to my very first comment above, you said “not grammar ambiguity” [previous thread @ 1:14 AM], then in subsequent comments you appealed to the “syntax ambiguity” inherent in Revelation [previous thread 1:18 AM].
Now, show me and everyone here where I, in your words, was “DENYING THAT ‘THE ONE SLAIN’ REFERS TO THE LAMB”. Point to the specific comment by thread and time. Well, ya can’t, because I didn’t.
------------------
Blogger Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...
June 4,
...
Craig,
"...show me...where I...was “DENYING THAT ‘THE ONE SLAIN’ REFERS TO THE LAMB”...."
the issue was denying the Lamb was slain FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE COSMOS
I apologize for not being more specific.
previous thread: 8:26 AM
"...the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world.
The grammar here is a little ambiguous, so it may instead be:
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was slain."
[you complain of grammar/syntax ambiguity in English so I drag in koine to prevent similar claim
about Greek]
"Thus, it’s either that the Lamb (Jesus) was slain from the very beginning, or that the book of life belonging to the Lamb was there from the very beginning,
"this book of life requiring the Life-Giver, Christ. Either way amounts to the same thing. No back-up plan; it was there from the beginning. There’s no “Ooops!” like Dahlheimer’s “God”."
THAT BY DEFINITION IS A BACKUP PLAN. there is no oops when you expect and plan ahead of time. The book of life because requiring the life-giver leaves The Lamb was slain from the foundation
DO YOU DENY CHRIST'S DEATH WAS AGREED ON BEFORE CREATION?
after that 1:46 PM:
"And you are wrong regarding the placement of “Lamb” and “book” in Revelation 13:8 ... (and neither is repeated). Here’s how it reads in the Greek: ...
in the Book of Life of the Lamb of the one slain from foundation of cosmos."
the sentence is talking about something slain from the foundation of the cosmos. So it is either the book or the lamb. The translation said "The Lamb" instead of "the one" recognizing the Lamb was meant.
"“the Lamb” is not repeated in the Greek text."
I said that "the one slain" REFERS TO THE LAMB, and of course so does "the foundation of the cosmos," you present the Greek text as valid so you are left with the MEANING that THE LAMB
WAS SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE COSMOS which speaks to eternality.
(I agree with all denunciations of Dahlheimer and whoever thinks Dahlheimer would like the supposed dung at my blog has such for brains. there is NOTHING about auras, etc. that support pantheism regardless of you believing the new age lie that they do, these things are not illusion they are REAL THEREFORE DANGEROUS)
----------------------
Blogger Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...
June 11 Sunday
...
Craig,
I HAVE NOT CHANGED MY POSITION ONE SINGLE TIME whic is, that The Lamb was slain
from the foundation of the world, not that the book was there from then, you however have
weasled when confronted with the fact that "the one slain" refers to The Lamb in the Greek
and argued "The Lamb" isn't repeated in Greek but the translator who knows koine Greek
better than you I figure, chose to put "the Lamb" instead of "the one." I defer to the translator
who has more credibility than you do. The issue is did "the one slain from the foundation of the cosmos" refer to the lamb? it did. I ASK A SECOND TIME, DO YOU DENY THAT CHRIST'S DEATH
AND RESURRECTION WERE AGREED UPON BEFORE CREATION? sounds like you do.
--------------------------
Anonymous Craig said...
Like the odor of farmland freshly fertilized with manure, there is Christine’s weekly contribution, with its fabrications, imputing incorrect assertions to individuals while simultaneously attempting to impugn their characters, all the while spewing her own brew of quasi-new age and blatant new age beliefs onto the readership, all of it mixed with the very rare valid statements. But is it really worth the effort to find the credible among the (sometimes literally) incredible?
Christine wrote regarding the conversation she initially butted [pun intended] herself into, and continues to incessantly ramble on about:
I HAVE NOT CHANGED MY POSITION ONE SINGLE TIME whic is, that The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, not that the book was there from then, you however have weasled when confronted with the fact that "the one slain" refers to The Lamb in the Greek and argued "The Lamb" isn't repeated in Greek but the translator who knows koine Greek better than you I figure, chose to put "the Lamb" instead of "the one." I defer to the translator who has more credibility than you do. The issue is did "the one slain from the foundation of the cosmos" refer to the lamb? it did. I ASK A SECOND TIME, DO YOU DENY THAT CHRIST'S DEATH AND RESURRECTION WERE AGREED UPON BEFORE CREATION? sounds like you do.
So, you didn’t first argue against my assertion regarding the grammatical ambiguity, then subsequently implicitly concede that it is grammatically ambiguous? That’s meant rhetorically, as that is, in fact, what you did, as your VERY FIRST WORDS were, and I quote you verbatim: not grammar ambiguity, but that the atoning death of the Lamb was decided on before creation began, THAT was the backup plan if sin occurred, so the Crucifixion was settled on before creation, which made it as good as having happened ["THE PROPHESIED SYSTEM OF REVELATION 13 RAPIDLY ADVANCES!" @ 1:14 AM]. So, Christine, here you state the Lamb’s death was a settled issue before creation, yet your most recent comment states specifically that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. So, your position has changed. As to your subsequent concession on ambiguity, I again quote you verbatim: Craig, re syntax ambiguity Revelation was questioned because of poor writing style, but this supports its legitimacy… [same thread as above, @ 1:18 AM]. Your position changed on the issue of ambiguity, as well.
You just make it up as you go, changing the argument, rather than explicitly conceding you were wrong/mistaken, etc.
I was quite clear from the very beginning, and I’ve never wavered, that “the one slain” refers to the Lamb (who else would it be?!), as that was never in question and was never brought up as an issue—until you tried to make it one. It’s not my fault you have a comprehension problem. If you don’t understand something, why not just ask a question rather than going off on some wild tangent, imputing something to me that I’d never stated?
And you conflate the real issue in this verse with something you think it is with your statement: The issue is did "the one slain from the foundation of the cosmos" refer to the lamb? it did.
So, I’ll have to go back to the issue as I brought it up initially.
Cont…
4:15 PM
Anonymous Craig said...
Cont…
The syntactical ambiguity in Revelation 13:8 allows for one of two interpretations:
(1) All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the one [the Lamb] who was slain from the foundation of the world.
(2) All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was slain.
Thus, (2) does NOT state that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, as it states nothing about the timing of the Lamb’s slaying, while (1) does. The fact that the NIV chooses to repeat “the Lamb” in English translation does not belie the fact that “the Lamb” occurs only once in the Greek. You’re making an issue out of nothing, as clearly “the one” refers to the “the Lamb”—something I’d never denied. What I DID state is in the above, which brings me to the real issue, which is: To what “from the foundation of the world” modify—does it modify the slaying of the Lamb ((1)) or those whose names were not written in the Book of Life ((2))?
As to your very last question in your most recent comment, this has been answered more than once—the very first time in my very first comment (in its last paragraph), which I’ll quote (again) here: Thus, it’s either that the Lamb (Jesus) was slain from the very beginning, or that the book of life belonging to the Lamb was there from the very beginning, this book of life requiring the Life-Giver, Christ. Either way amounts to the same thing. No back-up plan; it was there from the beginning….
Read more carefully, Christine, before you comment. If you are not sure, ask.
---------------------
5:32 PM
Blogger Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...
...
Craig,
"Christine, here you state the Lamb’s death was a settled issue before creation, [later states] was slain from the foundation of the world. So, your position has changed. "
that is two ways of saying the same thing. before creation was TIMELESS eternity the foundation
was in God's mind before spoken into existence and somewhere in all that the agreement for the Lamb
to be slain was done.
"...first argue against... grammatical ambiguity, then ... implicitly concede that it is grammatically ambiguous?"
I repeatedly said the ambiguity was an illusion (you invented in English) in Greek ditto because
NT is NOT PROPER OR CLASSICAL GREEK but koine a lower class dialect (like ebonics) different rules.
Byzantine text has to be original type because originals written in Byzantine turf! per Pickering.
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/13-8.htm Greek "the Book of Life of The Lamb HAVING
BEEN SLAIN from the founding of the world." (KJV/NKJV Byzantine.) "having been slain" points to "the
founding of the world" sounds ongoing from past.
NIV repeat Lamb to simplify because obviously The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.
Alexandrian meant this but it is clearer in the Byz. text type. Consistent with Acts 2:23 states: “… Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God," points to Lamb being slain from the founding of the cosmos.
"... your very last question" you say answered but you have NOT answered YES OR NO do you
admit the Lamb's death was decreed from the founding/before creation?
"....either...the Lamb (Jesus) was slain from the very beginning, or...the book of life
belonging to the Lamb was there from the very beginning, this book of life requiring the Life-Giver,
Christ. Either way amounts to the same thing."
Not the same. the Book depends on the Lamb being slain so the latter is from foundation of cosmos.
you obviously prefer the book from then.
" No back-up plan; it was there from the beginning…. "
THAT IS THE ESSENCE OF A BACKUP PLAN, WHICH BY DEFINITION IS DEVELOPED BEFORE STARTING
SOMETHING. the backup plan was there from the beginning. No backup plan? the Fall was then an
unexpected oops followed by a scramble to find a solution.
6:39 AM
Delete
Anonymous Craig said...
Christine,
As I stated just above, your very first words on this subject were: Not grammar ambiguity…. You can, until you are blue in the face, restate that you did not claim this, but the evidence by your own very explicit words illustrates that did initially claim counter my position, then subsequently change to agreeing with my position based on your assertion that this ambiguity is (1) due to John’s poor writing, and (2) being Koine Greek. Of course, all the NT is Koine…
Now you change your position even further to claim this is something I invented [Your statement: I repeatedly said the ambiguity was an illusion (you invented in English)] . Well, anyone can consult the various translations to see the differences—the differences I detailed in my very first comment.
You wrote: … but you have NOT answered YES OR NO do you admit the Lamb's death was decreed from the founding/before creation? Aaaah, here you’ve reframed your stance. “Decreed” is much different than actually being slain.
You wrote: the Book depends on the Lamb being slain so the latter is from foundation of cosmos. NOW you’re getting warmer! The implication in the last paragraph of my very first comment was just that, with my words: …this book of life requiring the Life-Giver, Christ. Either way amounts to the same thing. No back-up plan; it was there from the beginning.
And now you even bring forth a new, and totally unrelated, position: Byzantine text has to be original type because originals written in Byzantine turf! Let me make this abundantly clear: THIS IS NOT A TEXT-CRITICAL ISSUE (Byzantine vs. Alexandrian text), THIS IS A TRANSLATION ISSUE!
It’s time for you to, as per the KJV, ‘give up the ghost’ on this issue.
--------------------------
Craig said...
Christine,
To stave off more of the same line of argumentation from you, I’m going to quote your very first statement in full (bold added):
not grammar ambiguity, but that the atoning death of the Lamb was decided on before creation began, THAT was the backup plan if sin occurred, so the Crucifixion was settled on before creation, which made it as good as having happened.
I state this because of your assertion just above: Not the same. the Book depends on the Lamb being slain so the latter is from foundation of cosmos. you obviously prefer the book from then.
In your very first comment to me you state the Crucifixion was settled on before creation, which made it as good as having happened, which is exactly the point I strongly imply in the last paragraph of my initial comment, and quoted again above regarding the end result of either translation “amount[ing] to the same thing”. So, initially, though you didn’t fully understand my implication, you agreed with the point I was making, and now you are disagreeing with your own initial comment! You are now, in essence, arguing against yourself!
-----------------------------
Craig said...
paul,
Yes; while Dahlheimer’s “God” has to clean up a mess made by a lesser G/god who emanated from him, the
Christian God, the One True God, had a plan from the very beginning. Revelation 13:8 states:
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of
life, the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world.
The grammar here is a little ambiguous, so it may instead be:
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of
the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was slain.
Thus, it’s either that the Lamb (Jesus) was slain from the very beginning, or that the book of life belonging to the
Lamb was there from the very beginning, this book of life requiring the Life-Giver, Christ. Either way amounts to
the same thing. No back-up plan; it was there from the beginning. There’s no “Ooops!” like Dahlheimer’s “God”.
-----------------
Blogger Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said..."slain from the foundation of the world" not grammar ambiguity,
but that the atoning death of the Lamb
was decided on before creation began, THAT was the backup plan if sin occurred, so the Crucifixion was
settled on before creation, which made it as good as having happened.
-------------------------
Anonymous Craig said...
Christine, the indisputable queen of syntax and grammar (at least on this blog) wrote, in response to my post @
8:26 AM above:
"slain from the foundation of the world" not grammar ambiguity, but that the atoning death of the Lamb was
decided on before creation began, THAT was the backup plan if sin occurred, so the crucifixion was settled on
before creation, which made it as good as having happened.
The verse is grammatically ambiguous, such that it is grammatically permissible to translate it in one of two
ways, as I had in my earlier comment. Just consult a good technical commentary. Since exegesis begins with
correct translation, and interpretation hinges on translation, it is prudent to point these sorts of things out. Given
the syntactical ambiguity, one could accept the second of the two translations above and interpret the passage as
espousing predestination. But, then, one should back that up with other passages.
Your statement above is an interpretation, your interpretation presupposing what the verse should say
(eisegesis). I don’t necessarily disagree with your “the atoning death of the Lamb was decided on before creation
began”, as that’s what I tried to convey in my closing paragraph (to have a Book of Life, it would appear to
require the Life Giver). However, your claim that this was a “backup plan if sin occurred” is concerning. Did God
think He might have to sacrifice the Lamb just in case sin would occur? Is God not omniscient? Are you an open
theist?
Putting that aside, here’s food for thought, not requiring a response (please): From a philosophical perspective,
what is the relationship between the temporal realm and eternal? Should we construe eternity as consisting of
events occurring in a linear fashion?
----------------------------
Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...
...
Craig, re syntax ambiguity Revelation was questioned because of poor writing style, but
this supports its legitimacy, a semi literate fisherman would have scribes help him phrase
the Gospel, but was on his own on Patmos.
"the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world" the
second phrase clarifies the first, and focusses on the Lamb so is about the Lamb not the
book. supports Mosaic sacrifices looking forward to Jesus Christ, can also mean slain to
found the new creation to come.
"...your claim that this was a “backup plan if sin occurred” is concerning..... Is God not
omniscient? Are you an open theist?" no, God would know it would be needed, and they
all agreed on this solution to the inevitable problem before creating anything. plan A was
the sinless perfect creation until sin happened then plan B would kick in. There is no "oops"
when you anticipate something.
--------------------------
Craig said...
Christine, our resident know-it-all, wrote:
Craig, re syntax ambiguity Revelation was questioned because of poor writing style, but this supports its
legitimacy, a semi literate fisherman would have scribes help him phrase the Gospel, but was on his own on
Patmos.
"the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world" the second phrase clarifies
the first, and focusses on the Lamb so is about the Lamb not the book. supports Mosaic sacrifices looking forward
to Jesus Christ, can also mean slain to found the new creation to come.
“Questioned because of poor writing style”? I think it was your poor comprehension, most likely due to reading
too fast, coupled with your zeal to ‘correct’ everyone here. Why can’t you just admit that you initially missed my
point?
I find it amazing that such a “semi literate” [sic] fisherman would be able to write such vivid imagery, replete
with symbols galore (stars as angels, e.g.), in writing Revelation in its apocalyptic style, a genre so much
different than the one employed in the Gospel of John, without the help of other scribes.
You also wrote, responding to me, confusing my quotations of you and your own quoting of my quotations of you,
which I’ll fix for the sake of clarification:
"...your claim that this was a ‘backup plan if sin occurred’ is concerning..... Is God not
omniscient? Are you an open theist?" no, God would know it would be needed, and they
all agreed on this solution to the inevitable problem before creating anything. plan A was
the sinless perfect creation until sin happened then plan B would kick in. There is no "oops"
when you anticipate something.
So, you are implicitly admitting you were being sloppy in your initial response. At least that’s how I’m gonna take
it.
---------------------------
Blogger Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...
Craig I got your point, and I answered it. I did not admit initial sloppiness, but had to
explain the obvious to you in more detail.
you base your interpretation on syntax ambiguity which I answered was a feature of Revelation
used against it by some who denied its authenticity so you can't rely on it for your purpose
I added that this ambuity was what you could expect if it was legitimate. Revelation was first accepted, then
misused by Montanists so rejected and a coucil reinstated it. And since The
LAmb is mentioned second half of sentence but not the book of life, the seconed half is about the Lamb not the
book.
Revelation was a bit rough for koine so a simple fisherman wrote it unaided. nothing amazing, he WROTE WHAT
HE SAW AND HEARD. you, heretic, assume he wrote a genre. HE REPORTED WHAT HE SAW.
--------------------
Anonymous Craig said...
Oh Christine, au contraire.
First of all, syntax ambiguity is found in all of Scripture. It’s found in John’s Gospel. I’m currently finishing up a
series (some is posted), and I point out how John 19:28 is syntactically ambiguous. A similar thing is found in
19:30.
And you are wrong regarding the placement of “Lamb” and “book” in Revelation 13:8—but don’t let facts stop you
from pontificating. Both are found together in the latter half of the verse (and neither is repeated). Here’s how it
reads in the Greek:
?? t? ß?ß??? t?? ???? t?? ?????? t?? ?sfa?µ???? ?p? ?ataß???? ??sµ??
in the Book of Life of the Lamb of the one slain from foundation of cosmos.
I’m the “heretic”, eh? John wrote what he saw, and the writing is in the apocalyptic genre. If you wish to believe
that everything written should be understood literally, that’s your prerogative. Me, I don’t think that Jesus will
strike down His enemies with a literal sharp sword that comes out of His mouth. I think this is more likely to be
understood as in line with Hebrews 4:12.
------------------------------------------------------
"And you are wrong regarding...“Lamb” and “book” in Revelation 13:8...(and neither is repeated)."
Lamb is repeated in the translation you used.
" Here’s how it reads in the Greek:
....in the Book of Life of the Lamb of the one slain from foundation of cosmos."
Thank you for making my point for me, "the Book of life of the Lamb OF THE ONE
slain from the foundation of cosmos" of the one slain clearly refers to the Lamb.
"I’m the “heretic”, eh? John wrote what he saw, and the writing is in the apocalyptic genre."
you say its amazong John could do this by implication ascribing Revelation to John's ability as if he made it up of
course its going to be apocalyptic because of content. you say its amazing he could do this. WHY? if he could read
and write he could file a report. nothing amazing. STOP FOCUSING ON MAN AND FOCUS ON GOD. (same deal
with your nonsense about health reason for food laws) If he saw Ozzie and Harriet discuss theology the report
wouldn't be apocalyptic what he saw was apocalyptic so the report was apocalyptic.
literal vs. symbolic has to do with interpreting what was seen, NOT with reporting it. he REPORTED what he was
shown, as he was told to do, he didn't have some reverie with strong fantasy and compose in the apocalyptic
genre
------------------------------------
Anonymous Craig said...
Christine,
I don’t know why you have this penchant to try to ‘prove’ things about which you’ve no clue.
First, let’s not lose track of the argument. Most recently you claimed the following: And since The LAmb is
mentioned second half of sentence but not the book of life, the seconed half is about the Lamb not the book. Yet
rather than concede that your assertion is wrong in view of the evidence I provided, you go back to your original
assertion that the syntax is not ambiguous and claim I'd made your point (I didn't). Rather than attempt to
explain exactly how the syntax is ambiguous, I’ll point you to a number of English versions that illustrate it.
Should that not be convincing—and why would I think it would be for you—check out the parallel at 17:8, which is
not syntactically ambiguous:
… whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world… (KJV)
--------------------------------------
Anonymous Craig said...
Christine wrote, quoting me first (bold), then responding: 'And you are wrong regarding..."Lamb" and "book" in
Revelation 13:8...(and neither is repeated).'
Lamb is repeated in the translation you used.
BUT IT'S NOT IN THE GREEK FROM WHICH THE VERSE WAS TRANSLATED!!!
"Lamb" and "book of life", in Greek, are most certainly in the last half of that verse--and NEITHER is repeated.
Just look at the Greek text in the hyperlink supplied at 6:40 PM above: t? ß?ß??? t?? ???? = "the book of life"; t??
?????? = "the lamb". You are incorrect, and it's well-past time you admit this.
--------------------------------
Blogger Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhfJwAHhmrk Summer of Rage | Mass Riots in July?
paul, I apologize for putting the wrong name on.
re Jim Bakker, anyone who could tolerate him before the scandal and sees only the scandal is seriously fleshly
and loving deception. the whole style was to put it mildly worldly and fleshly I doubt it has changed much. I
couldn't stomach him for more than a few seconds, two minutes at the most. the scandal was predictable. and
THEME PARK!? and his wife like an over made up whore? that people would send him money shows how screwed
up many Christians are.
Craig "Yet rather than concede that your assertion is wrong in view of the evidence I provided,"
you gave no evidence
"you go back to your original assertion that the syntax is not ambiguous"
EXCUSE ME?! I NEVER SAID THE SYNTAX WAS NOT AMBIGUOUS. I said that the ambiguity was more typical of
Revelation than the rest of the NT and some said therefore John didn't write it, but less educated and alone this
could be expected. Scripture ambiguities - difficulty of finite expressing inifnite, also it is street Greek not
Classical Greek, think ebonics vs. Ivy League English.
" and claim I'd made your point (I didn't)."
Yes you made my point, because when you quote Greek that says THE ONE in that sentence instead of repeating
the word LAMB it is clearly speaking about THE LAMB because books don't get slain and if all in it die then no one
meets Jesus at His Return and gets caught up as He is descending. the translator who put the repeat of "Lamb"
in the sentence obviously saw "the one" as referring to The Lamb.
saying the LAMB was slain from the foundation of the cosmos is consistent with your true statement, that God
"had a plan from the very beginning." The Lamb was as good as dead because His death (and REsurrection) was
determined from before Creation to correct what
would inevitably happen.
I'm not going to argue with you anymore on this. you want to pursue your self righteousness
go ahead. meanwhile, paul, forget health reasons for food laws. there aren't any. it was about separation. That is
explicitly clear.
"MCE is not interested in the truth, not interested in what is right." on the contrary, defending truth is why I
argue and I am repeatedly apalled by what I see here. Like the people who insisted that the parable of the
mustard tree was not about what Jesus said it was about, the growth of the Kingdom of Heaven, but about the
abnormal growth of false churches.
------------------------------
Anonymous Craig said...
Christine, continuing to obfuscate:
Craig [wrote to Christine:] "Yet rather than concede that your assertion is wrong in view of the evidence I
provided,"
[her response:] you gave no evidence
The evidence was in the Greek text I provided, which refutes your assertion that (1) it is not ambiguous; (2) that
“the Lamb” is in the 2nd half of the verse rather than “book of life” which is in the first [since The LAmb is
mentioned second half of sentence but not the book of life, the seconed half is about the Lamb not the book…
(10:53PM – all time stamps from previous thread)]; and, (3) that “the Lamb” was not repeated in the verse. I’ll
provide proof of your statements as I go.
[quoting me:] "you go back to your original assertion that the syntax is not ambiguous"
EXCUSE ME?! I NEVER SAID THE SYNTAX WAS NOT AMBIGUOUS. I said that the ambiguity was more typical of
Revelation than the rest of the NT and some said therefore John didn't write it, but less educated and alone this
could be expected. Scripture ambiguities - difficulty of finite expressing inifnite, also it is street Greek not
Classical Greek, think ebonics vs. Ivy League English.
Addressing (1), your initial response (1:14AM) stated: not grammar ambiguity, but that the atoning death of the
Lamb was decided on before creation… You partially backed down from this assertion [re syntax ambiguity
Revelation was questioned because of poor writing style (1:18AM)], claiming that, comparatively, John’s Gospel
is not ambiguous because John had help [a semi literate fisherman would have scribes help him phrase the
Gospel, but was on his own on Patmos (1:18AM)]; however, the Scriptural evidence shows ambiguity throughout
the NT, including John’s Gospel. In fact, the current series I’m writing points to this in John 19:28-30.
Cont:
7:50 AM
Anonymous Craig said...
Cont:
Yet, then again, your words below imply that it’s not really ambiguous (‘round and ‘round we go), because (2)
and (3) above:
[quoting me:] "and claim I'd made your point (I didn't)."
Yes you made my point, because when you quote Greek that says THE ONE in that sentence instead of repeating
the word LAMB it is clearly speaking about THE LAMB because books don't get slain… the translator who put the
repeat of "Lamb" in the sentence obviously saw "the one" as referring to The Lamb.
So, after your initial claim (2), you respond to my preemptive response to you—“the Lamb” is not repeated (3)
—by claiming that the Greek substantival [t?? ?sfa?µ????], which means “the one slain”, or “who was slain” (or,
“the one who was slain”) is a repeating of “the Lamb”, though you neglect that even if one were to grant that (I
wouldn’t), that it’s STILL IN THE LATTER PART OF THE VERSE ALONG WITH “BOOK OF LIFE” (2).
I’m only belaboring this because I’m tired of you running roughshod over folks here. My initial comment was in
response to Dahlheimer, but you had to butt in with your ‘know-it-all’ attitude. You clearly DON’T know it all.
---------------------------
Anonymous Craig said...
Phooey. In my attempt to unravel Christine’s Gordian knot, I added an extra “not” in my point (3) above. That is,
it should be: (3) that “the Lamb” was repeated in the verse. And since I’m providing a correction, I’ll add another
preemptive statement. If I were to state, “Christine, the one who would argue with wallpaper”, the part after
“Christine” is descriptive, NOT a repeating of “Christine”. Hence “the Lamb” is not repeated in the Greek text.
-----------------------------
Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...
Craig, I didn't back down AT ALL from ANYTHING. if you can't see that in English, I doubt
you can make any valid points in Greek so I doubt I will waste my time reading whatever
nonsense you put together in that article. This is the second time you ascribed to me
things I was not doing and didn't appear to be either, admitting you take things the way you
prefer so you are not after truth but subjective wishful thinking.
The original English translation said The Lamb twice, second time translating "the one"
so I'm not alone in figuring this meant the Lamb. meanwhile you are left in the position
of saying either
no one is left alive who were in the book of life, unlikely given harpazo statement and
Matthew 24 though not impossible given Luke 18:8,
the other an absurdity, that a book is killed,
third option a reference to God's preplanning which is to the glory of God. And you refuse
the latter. hah!
or the absurdity that only those who get killed are in the Lamb's book of life, that if you didn't
die a martyr violently, but died peacefully in your sleep, you are damned or at least real low
class barely tolerated on the perimeter of the Kingdom of HEaven when it is installed on earth.
--------------------------------------
Christine wrote: I didn't back down AT ALL from ANYTHING.
In a way, that’s not exactly untrue. What you DID do is initially claim “no grammar ambiguity” against my claim
that there was grammatical ambiguity (there are two ways to interpret the Greek); however, your follow-up
answer didn’t “back down”, rather it just said: re syntax ambiguity Revelation was questioned because of poor
writing style. So, you didn’t EXPLICITLY “back down”, though it was implicit.
In any case, I’ve made my case just above, so I won’t rehash. Clearly, you’ve backtracked to where you’d done a
360, then continued your attempts at obfuscation. I’ll let the readers decide whose position is the accurate
portrayal of events.
Now, with this new stuff you’ve brought up…are you serious?! Where did I intimate that the Greek translated “the
one who was slain” refers to the book of life?! Your comprehension is seriously lacking, Christine. Go argue with
your wallpaper. You’ll do much better, I promise you.
The problem is that you don’t understand the Greek, and, hence, you’ve no idea what you’re talking about. As I
suggested in my last comment on the other thread, you don’t have to believe me, just check the variations in
English translations illustrating the very point I made in my initial comment on Revelation 13:8. That is, the
grammar is grammatically ambiguous such that there are two possible renderings.
But, haven’t you—again—violated your once per week limit on posting?
--------------------
Blogger Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...
Sunday May 28, AD 2017 will date future posts so no one wrongly thinks as two do now that I
posted twice in same week.
...
"... you didn’t EXPLICITLY “back down”, though it was implicit."
I see why you misunderstood me, to me syntax and grammar are all the same. I did not back
down. writing problems in NT are because it is NOT Classical Greek but koine http://www.theopedia.com/greek
which is to Classical Greek as ebonics is to proper English.
Revelation has extra problems, used against it when arguing John the Apostle didn't write it (Irenaeus, student of
John's student, said he did, so he did). https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/17428/who-wrote-
the-book-of-revelation
confusing the issue is "a literal millennium" Revelation shows NO END to Christ's rule.
the first thousand years the devil is fully bound unable to tempt ANYONE not crippled like now,
then released briefly for one last test of mankind a revolt happens and it is put down then the
general resurrection, the judgement, new heavens and new earth and descent of the New
Jerusalem (which the CHurch is a foretaste of).
I have NOT violated the once a week limit. I post on Sundays and sometimes on a later day
that is still ONE DAY IN THAT WEEK. Lack of others posting looks like less time passed.
"Clearly, you’ve backtracked to where you’d done a 360," huh? you mean I reminded you
that you started this by denying The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world?
"then continued your attempts at obfuscation." I have not obfuscated but tried to explain in more detail but you
seem more dishonest than confused. so you don't deceive others I try to correct your errors anyway.
"Where did I intimate that the Greek translated “the one who was slain” refers to the book of life?!"
BY DENYING THAT "THE ONE SLAIN" REFERS TO THE LAMB, which denial much earlier is why this discussion,
YOU LEAVE NO OTHER OPTION but that the book of life was slain, and a couple of other absurdities.
----------------
Anonymous Craig said...
Christine,
Since you persist, let’s go back to the very first statement I made, which was addressed to paul and in reference
to Dalheimer’s “god”. [This provides yet another opportunity for Dalheimer to try to defend his position/refute my
assertions about his cosmology and theology.]
_________________________________
Yes; while Dahlheimer’s “God” has to clean up a mess made by a lesser G/god who emanated from him, the
Christian God, the One True God, had a plan from the very beginning. Revelation 13:8 states:
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of
life, the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world.
The grammar here is a little ambiguous, so it may instead be:
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of
the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was slain.
Thus, it’s either that the Lamb (Jesus) was slain from the very beginning, or that the book of life belonging to the
Lamb was there from the very beginning, this book of life requiring the Life-Giver, Christ. Either way amounts to
the same thing. No back-up plan; it was there from the beginning. There’s no “Ooops!” like Dahlheimer’s “God”.
___________________________________
I’ve never stated nor intimated anything about the scroll being ‘slain’—that’s your own ridiculous misconstrual. In
fact, above I implied otherwise with this @ 9:19 AM: If I were to state, “Christine, the one who would argue with
wallpaper”, the part after “Christine” is descriptive, NOT a repeating of “Christine”. Hence [similarly] “the Lamb”
is not repeated in the Greek text.
Yes, all the NT is written in Koine Greek. But, let’s not obfuscate [again], I didn’t confuse what you wrote. Sure,
“syntax” and “grammar” can be synonymous; I’ve even used them that way. The issue here is your attempted
rebuttal of my initial statement above, not Koine vs. Classical Greek. As I noted, syntactical ambiguity is found
throughout the NT, including the Gospel of John. I stand by my comment above @ 7:50 / 7:52 AM, and the
follow-up @ 9:19 AM, which point out your flip-flop on the issue of syntax/grammar: In reference to my very first
comment above, you said “not grammar ambiguity” [previous thread @ 1:14 AM], then in subsequent comments
you appealed to the “syntax ambiguity” inherent in Revelation [previous thread 1:18 AM].
Now, show me and everyone here where I, in your words, was “DENYING THAT ‘THE ONE SLAIN’ REFERS TO THE
LAMB”. Point to the specific comment by thread and time. Well, ya can’t, because I didn’t.
------------------
Blogger Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...
June 4,
...
Craig,
"...show me...where I...was “DENYING THAT ‘THE ONE SLAIN’ REFERS TO THE LAMB”...."
the issue was denying the Lamb was slain FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE COSMOS
I apologize for not being more specific.
previous thread: 8:26 AM
"...the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world.
The grammar here is a little ambiguous, so it may instead be:
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of
the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was slain."
[you complain of grammar/syntax ambiguity in English so I drag in koine to prevent similar claim
about Greek]
"Thus, it’s either that the Lamb (Jesus) was slain from the very beginning, or that the book of life belonging to
the Lamb was there from the very beginning,
"this book of life requiring the Life-Giver, Christ. Either way amounts to the same thing. No back-up plan; it was
there from the beginning. There’s no “Ooops!” like Dahlheimer’s “God”."
THAT BY DEFINITION IS A BACKUP PLAN. there is no oops when you expect and plan ahead of time. The book of
life because requiring the life-giver leaves The Lamb was slain from the foundation
DO YOU DENY CHRIST'S DEATH WAS AGREED ON BEFORE CREATION?
after that 1:46 PM:
"And you are wrong regarding the placement of “Lamb” and “book” in Revelation 13:8 ... (and neither is
repeated). Here’s how it reads in the Greek: ...
in the Book of Life of the Lamb of the one slain from foundation of cosmos."
the sentence is talking about something slain from the foundation of the cosmos. So it is either the book or the
lamb. The translation said "The Lamb" instead of "the one" recognizing the Lamb was meant.
"“the Lamb” is not repeated in the Greek text."
I said that "the one slain" REFERS TO THE LAMB, and of course so does "the foundation of the cosmos," you
present the Greek text as valid so you are left with the MEANING that THE LAMB
WAS SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE COSMOS which speaks to eternality.
(I agree with all denunciations of Dahlheimer and whoever thinks Dahlheimer would like the supposed dung at
my blog has such for brains. there is NOTHING about auras, etc. that support pantheism regardless of you
believing the new age lie that they do, these things are not illusion they are REAL THEREFORE DANGEROUS)
----------------------
Blogger Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...
June 11 Sunday
...
Craig,
I HAVE NOT CHANGED MY POSITION ONE SINGLE TIME whic is, that The Lamb was slain
from the foundation of the world, not that the book was there from then, you however have
weasled when confronted with the fact that "the one slain" refers to The Lamb in the Greek
and argued "The Lamb" isn't repeated in Greek but the translator who knows koine Greek
better than you I figure, chose to put "the Lamb" instead of "the one." I defer to the translator
who has more credibility than you do. The issue is did "the one slain from the foundation of the cosmos" refer to
the lamb? it did. I ASK A SECOND TIME, DO YOU DENY THAT CHRIST'S DEATH
AND RESURRECTION WERE AGREED UPON BEFORE CREATION? sounds like you do.
--------------------------
Anonymous Craig said...
Like the odor of farmland freshly fertilized with manure, there is Christine’s weekly contribution, with its
fabrications, imputing incorrect assertions to individuals while simultaneously attempting to impugn their
characters, all the while spewing her own brew of quasi-new age and blatant new age beliefs onto the
readership, all of it mixed with the very rare valid statements. But is it really worth the effort to find the credible
among the (sometimes literally) incredible?
Christine wrote regarding the conversation she initially butted [pun intended] herself into, and continues to
incessantly ramble on about:
I HAVE NOT CHANGED MY POSITION ONE SINGLE TIME whic is, that The Lamb was slain from the foundation of
the world, not that the book was there from then, you however have weasled when confronted with the fact that
"the one slain" refers to The Lamb in the Greek and argued "The Lamb" isn't repeated in Greek but the translator
who knows koine Greek better than you I figure, chose to put "the Lamb" instead of "the one." I defer to the
translator who has more credibility than you do. The issue is did "the one slain from the foundation of the
cosmos" refer to the lamb? it did. I ASK A SECOND TIME, DO YOU DENY THAT CHRIST'S DEATH AND
RESURRECTION WERE AGREED UPON BEFORE CREATION? sounds like you do.
So, you didn’t first argue against my assertion regarding the grammatical ambiguity, then subsequently implicitly
concede that it is grammatically ambiguous? That’s meant rhetorically, as that is, in fact, what you did, as your
VERY FIRST WORDS were, and I quote you verbatim: not grammar ambiguity, but that the atoning death of the
Lamb was decided on before creation began, THAT was the backup plan if sin occurred, so the Crucifixion was
settled on before creation, which made it as good as having happened ["THE PROPHESIED SYSTEM OF
REVELATION 13 RAPIDLY ADVANCES!" @ 1:14 AM]. So, Christine, here you state the Lamb’s death was a settled
issue before creation, yet your most recent comment states specifically that the Lamb was slain from the
foundation of the world. So, your position has changed. As to your subsequent concession on ambiguity, I again
quote you verbatim: Craig, re syntax ambiguity Revelation was questioned because of poor writing style, but this
supports its legitimacy… [same thread as above, @ 1:18 AM]. Your position changed on the issue of ambiguity,
as well.
You just make it up as you go, changing the argument, rather than explicitly conceding you were
wrong/mistaken, etc.
I was quite clear from the very beginning, and I’ve never wavered, that “the one slain” refers to the Lamb (who
else would it be?!), as that was never in question and was never brought up as an issue—until you tried to make
it one. It’s not my fault you have a comprehension problem. If you don’t understand something, why not just ask
a question rather than going off on some wild tangent, imputing something to me that I’d never stated?
And you conflate the real issue in this verse with something you think it is with your statement: The issue is did
"the one slain from the foundation of the cosmos" refer to the lamb? it did.
So, I’ll have to go back to the issue as I brought it up initially.
Cont…
4:15 PM
Anonymous Craig said...
Cont…
The syntactical ambiguity in Revelation 13:8 allows for one of two interpretations:
(1) All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book
of life, the one [the Lamb] who was slain from the foundation of the world.
(2) All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the
foundation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was slain.
Thus, (2) does NOT state that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, as it states nothing about the
timing of the Lamb’s slaying, while (1) does. The fact that the NIV chooses to repeat “the Lamb” in English
translation does not belie the fact that “the Lamb” occurs only once in the Greek. You’re making an issue out of
nothing, as clearly “the one” refers to the “the Lamb”—something I’d never denied. What I DID state is in the
above, which brings me to the real issue, which is: To what “from the foundation of the world” modify—does it
modify the slaying of the Lamb ((1)) or those whose names were not written in the Book of Life ((2))?
As to your very last question in your most recent comment, this has been answered more than once—the very
first time in my very first comment (in its last paragraph), which I’ll quote (again) here: Thus, it’s either that the
Lamb (Jesus) was slain from the very beginning, or that the book of life belonging to the Lamb was there from
the very beginning, this book of life requiring the Life-Giver, Christ. Either way amounts to the same thing. No
back-up plan; it was there from the beginning….
Read more carefully, Christine, before you comment. If you are not sure, ask.
---------------------
5:32 PM
Blogger Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...
...
Craig,
"Christine, here you state the Lamb’s death was a settled issue before creation, [later states] was slain from the
foundation of the world. So, your position has changed. "
that is two ways of saying the same thing. before creation was TIMELESS eternity the foundation
was in God's mind before spoken into existence and somewhere in all that the agreement for the Lamb
to be slain was done.
"...first argue against... grammatical ambiguity, then ... implicitly concede that it is grammatically ambiguous?"
I repeatedly said the ambiguity was an illusion (you invented in English) in Greek ditto because
NT is NOT PROPER OR CLASSICAL GREEK but koine a lower class dialect (like ebonics) different rules.
Byzantine text has to be original type because originals written in Byzantine turf! per Pickering.
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/13-8.htm Greek "the Book of Life of The Lamb HAVING
BEEN SLAIN from the founding of the world." (KJV/NKJV Byzantine.) "having been slain" points to "the
founding of the world" sounds ongoing from past.
NIV repeat Lamb to simplify because obviously The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.
Alexandrian meant this but it is clearer in the Byz. text type. Consistent with Acts 2:23 states: “… Him, being
delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God," points to Lamb being slain from the founding of
the cosmos.
"... your very last question" you say answered but you have NOT answered YES OR NO do you
admit the Lamb's death was decreed from the founding/before creation?
"....either...the Lamb (Jesus) was slain from the very beginning, or...the book of life
belonging to the Lamb was there from the very beginning, this book of life requiring the Life-Giver,
Christ. Either way amounts to the same thing."
Not the same. the Book depends on the Lamb being slain so the latter is from foundation of cosmos.
you obviously prefer the book from then.
" No back-up plan; it was there from the beginning…. "
THAT IS THE ESSENCE OF A BACKUP PLAN, WHICH BY DEFINITION IS DEVELOPED BEFORE STARTING
SOMETHING. the backup plan was there from the beginning. No backup plan? the Fall was then an
unexpected oops followed by a scramble to find a solution.
6:39 AM
Delete
Anonymous Craig said...
Christine,
As I stated just above, your very first words on this subject were: Not grammar ambiguity…. You can, until you
are blue in the face, restate that you did not claim this, but the evidence by your own very explicit words
illustrates that did initially claim counter my position, then subsequently change to agreeing with my position
based on your assertion that this ambiguity is (1) due to John’s poor writing, and (2) being Koine Greek. Of
course, all the NT is Koine…
Now you change your position even further to claim this is something I invented [Your statement: I repeatedly
said the ambiguity was an illusion (you invented in English)] . Well, anyone can consult the various translations
to see the differences—the differences I detailed in my very first comment.
You wrote: … but you have NOT answered YES OR NO do you admit the Lamb's death was decreed from the
founding/before creation? Aaaah, here you’ve reframed your stance. “Decreed” is much different than actually
being slain.
You wrote: the Book depends on the Lamb being slain so the latter is from foundation of cosmos. NOW you’re
getting warmer! The implication in the last paragraph of my very first comment was just that, with my words: …
this book of life requiring the Life-Giver, Christ. Either way amounts to the same thing. No back-up plan; it was
there from the beginning.
And now you even bring forth a new, and totally unrelated, position: Byzantine text has to be original type
because originals written in Byzantine turf! Let me make this abundantly clear: THIS IS NOT A TEXT-CRITICAL
ISSUE (Byzantine vs. Alexandrian text), THIS IS A TRANSLATION ISSUE!
It’s time for you to, as per the KJV, ‘give up the ghost’ on this issue.
--------------------------
Craig said...
Christine,
To stave off more of the same line of argumentation from you, I’m going to quote your very first statement in full
(bold added):
not grammar ambiguity, but that the atoning death of the Lamb was decided on before creation began, THAT was
the backup plan if sin occurred, so the Crucifixion was settled on before creation, which made it as good as
having happened.
I state this because of your assertion just above: Not the same. the Book depends on the Lamb being slain so the
latter is from foundation of cosmos. you obviously prefer the book from then.
In your very first comment to me you state the Crucifixion was settled on before creation, which made it as good
as having happened, which is exactly the point I strongly imply in the last paragraph of my initial comment, and
quoted again above regarding the end result of either translation “amount[ing] to the same thing”. So, initially,
though you didn’t fully understand my implication, you agreed with the point I was making, and now you are
disagreeing with your own initial comment! You are now, in essence, arguing against yourself!
-----------------------------
I incl. the remakr to Paul because of my attacker here calling me New Age.
paul
you don't know what hinduism is. It is NOT chakras, that is info from Indian civ exploited to screw one's mind,
aka illumination hinduism is worship of vedic false gods plus some mystical philosophical stuff (some is in the
charismatic and/or contemplative scene) ramped up to look better to Brits.
if chakras weren't real and manipulating them make you more vulnerable to evil spirits and self deceptive states,
why would demons work on getting us to do this? if they don't exist they are harmless waste of time and nothing
to argue against christians doing for a placebo effect. idiot.
LEAVE CHAKRAS ALONE NOT BECAUSE THEY DON'T EXIST BUT BECAUSE THEY DO EXIST.
an effort to refute Eccles. 12 as relevant a few years ago referred to the life force that animates the body, an
occultic mystical concept itself (which is probably accidentally correct). AND NO ONE CUAGHT IT!
some clairvoyance is physical since animals see and react a lot of "spiritual" is just a more attenuated form of
material.
as for the Gospel, chakras and MArs are not part of it neither is the politics on this blog you need the Gospel
followed by the Bible to sort these things out, and to do spiritual warfare. so why do you talk in terms of mixing
it? I suppose you think salvation requires understanding EU politics? or when and if we get into WW3?
you who denounce viciously any serious weapon against new age practices that discredits them possibly
with them and with deceived Christians, SOUND LIKE PANICKED WITCHES!
Craig
I NEVER CHANGED MY STANCE. reframing is restating, not changing stance "do you have H2O" is reframed as
"do you have water?"
"... you state the Crucifixion was settled on before creation, which made it as good as having happened...the
point I strongly imply in... my initial comment,"
liar. you stated agianst this that between decreed and dead is a difference. you argued for the book not the
Lamb's slaying being from the foundation, since the book depends on the Lamb's death, BUT THAT IS WHY
the book is AFTER the foundation.
" ... the end result of either translation “amount[ing] to the same thing”."
AGAIN YOU LIE. you did NOT say this about translations but that either the book or the Lamb's death being from
the foundation amounted to the same thing, WHICH THEY DO NOT.
you say I misunderstood but agreed NO. your main point was no backup plan but what's arranged
before or during start is by definition a backup plan, and YOU MAKE GOD OUT TO BE AN IDIOT BY DENYING HE
MADE A BACKUP PLAN. you don't need supernatural wisdom or foreknowledge to compute the liklihood of the
Fall.
"...Not grammar ambiguity…" yes I deny ambiguity that goes against the predetermination of the Cross (outside
of your warped mind). any ambiguity in Greek is an ILLUSION NT Greek is not Classical or modern different rules.
you say text issue new and unrelated and is irrelevant to translation. idiot, text determines translation. (you
presented Greek text yourself.)
YOU HAVE NO CREDIBILITY WITH ME never refuted me and I REFUTED YOU REPEATEDLY. enough of you
and your self satisfied phony graciousness. I will ignore you.
BTW prewrath rapture doesn't involve two second comings, just a hover in the sky with Jesus.
Your posts here are deceptively selective. I suggest you take Constance's warm advice:
ReplyDeleteConstance Cumbey 9:10 PM
"forgive my PUNishment here, but it appears to me that perhaps, er ah, our good friend Christine could use a good CHAKRAabsorber.
Sorry, but I couldn't resist it.
Constance"
Sorry, but I couldn't resist it.
DeleteAnon 4:55 AM
"Your posts here are deceptively selective."
Deletenope, they are exact. go read all the posts I copied from Constance's site and see for yourself. I don't do deception, but you do or else you are in some trance altered state of consciousness where you trust some feeling to guide you and think your flesh is the Holy Spirit.
Craig began by arguing that there was n backup plan but the plan was there from the beginning which, since it was to rememdy a predictable problem was by definition a backup plan, BECAUSE it was from (or from just before) the beginning. then the argued wandered on and I notice he admits in a later post to Susanna that he doesn't know Greek, relies on lexicons etc. and yet he PRESUMES to tell us there is some ambiguity in the Greek that mandates his rejection of Jesus being slain FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD?!
who is the deceiver here, I who ask hard questions and won't put up with sleaxzily gracious obfuscation andposturing? Or Craig who deceives with his gracioius style and wordiness that puts you to sleep practically so you miss things?
add to that, that he considered the idea of some people that Christ gave up His spirit at death no to The Father, but to the community of believers was a useful insight, instead of crying out in horror at such blasphemy, well, something is seriously wrong with Craig.
Deleteit's very great post!!!
ReplyDeleteGoldenslot สล็อต
goldenslot mobile